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micha
17-06-2011, 02:56
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Posted: Wednesday June 15, 2011 6:05PM ; Updated: Wednesday June 15, 2011 6:05PM

Tim Marchman>INSIDE MMA
More ColumnsEmail Tim Marchman
Overeem looks part, but resume pales compared to reputation
Story Highlights
Alistair Overeem fights Fabricio Werdum on Saturday in Strikeforce's Grand Prix
The Werdum fight will mark Overeem's first really serious fight in four years
The Dutchman is an example of the BJ Penn Fallacy, undeserving of his acclaim
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Ballyhooed heavyweight Alistair Overeem (above), who fights Fabricio Werdum on Saturday, hasn't had a serious fight in years.
AP

Alistair Overeem, who owns about as many heavyweight titles he never defends as he does wins over impressive opponents, is a fraud. At those moments when you are tempted to think that fighting is, for all its bright promise, about the most thoroughly debased sport one can follow, think of this thick rope of Dutch muscle and despair.
This Saturday in Dallas, Overeem will take the first really serious fight he's had in four years, a quarterfinal bout in the Strikeforce Heavyweight Grand Prix. If he beats Fabricio Werdum, it will be, speaking generously, the fourth impressive win in a long career, and the first since 2006. That such things can be said of a man widely, if inexplicably, held to be one of the best heavyweights in the world makes him a fine example of what you might call the B.J. Penn Fallacy.
The Penn Fallacy occurs when a fighter is thought of as top rank despite there being no evidence that he is. It holds theory above practice and style above achievement, and lends support to all promoters who seek to carefully manicure the images of fighters who look or talk a part they can't actually play. It negates the very point of fighting, which is that it is a sport in which a man is wholly accountable for, and judged by, what actually happens in his fights. It is bad, and ought to be done away with.
B.J. Penn deserves to have the fallacy named after him because he is widely thought of as a top welterweight contender despite not having won an important fight in that division since January of 2004, and thought of by many as the uncrowned lightweight champion even though he was thrashed twice by Frankie Edgar, his obvious better, last year. No amount of evidence that Penn is not actually a great fighter will ever convince some large part of the public that he isn't one, because he looks like one, has the physical skills of one, and occasionally does things that a great fighter might do, such as lick an opponent's blood off his gloves. The mere invocation of his name creates a quantum phenomenon, where failures are evidence of superiority and results don't matter.
Similarly, even though there is no real reason to think that Overeem is a top fighter, he is commonly thought of as one. You don't have to ask too many hardcore fans to find one who thinks he ought to get the next shot at the UFC title. You don't have to ask too many more to find someone who thinks he's the best heavyweight alive.
Why is this so? He knocks people out, he has been successful in another sport, he has title belts to wear, and his freakish muscles have muscles of their own to flex. All of this makes him seem like the sort of person who ought to swan around as a great heavyweight. That none of this counts for anything -- that physique doesn't rate in fighting, that a title belt you won by beating a bum and don't defend may as well have been bought on Craigslist, and so on -- doesn't quite seem to matter.
This is bewildering. Overeem has fought 46 times, and has had every opportunity to establish himself as the man. His most impressive wins are a submission of and a decision over Vitor Belfort (himself a great beneficiary of the Penn Fallacy) and a knockout of Sergei Kharitonov. That's it. He spent the majority of his career as a guy good enough to face, but not good enough to beat, real top fighters like Chuck Liddell, Mauricio Rua and Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. What made Overeem's reputation coming into the Grand Prix is a win in a K-1 tournament, which is only slightly more relevant than what he might do in a pickup game on a YMCA court, and a string of wins in the last four years against such has-beens as Mark Hunt, Gary Goodridge and Kaz Fuijita and dubious prospects as Brett Rogers and Todd Duffee. In perhaps his toughest test, a fight against a corpse-like Mirko Filopovic in 2008, he distinguished himself mainly by repeatedly striking his opponent in the groin. Imagine a pro basketball player dunking on fossils at old-timer's games for four years and then beating his chest over it while a cheering section proclaims him the best hoopster alive, and you have the last several years of Overeem's career.
All of this has somehow made him the heavy betting favorite over Werdum, a man who for whatever his flaws has already beaten Overeem, in addition to Fedor Emelianenko, Antonio Silva and Gabriel Gonzaga, among others.
You have to like style in fighting. It would be wonderful if B.J. Penn were some multidisciplinary dynamo capable of holding down titles in multiple weight classes at once, if Vitor Belfort were a uniquely dangerous tactician equally capable of knocking a man out with championship-caliber boxing or tapping him with deadly secrets learned while taking in the inner mysteries of Gracie jiu-jitsu, and if Alistair Overeem were in fact some deadly Dutch cyborg capable of decapitating championship-level heavyweights at will. All of it might be true; there is no reason to think any of it is. Overeem could well win Saturday. If he does, it would be the first time in years he's given the public a reason to take him seriously.
Tim Marchman can be reached at [email protected].


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Read more: Evidence for Alistair Overeem as top heavyweight is sorely lacking - Tim Marchman - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tim_marchman/06/15/overeem/index.html#ixzz1PUDqu9Xc)

blackadder
17-06-2011, 03:01
Die gast is een voormaalig baseball columnist. En iemand die beweerd dat: What made Overeem's reputation coming into the Grand Prix is a win in a K-1 tournament, which is only slightly more relevant than what he might do in a pickup game on a YMCA court
hoeft men verder ook niet serieus te nemen.

blackadder
17-06-2011, 03:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkeHqjNIAk&feature=youtu.be

micha
17-06-2011, 03:19
Tim Marchman can be reached at [email protected].


ik heb hem gemaild en gezegd wat ik van zijn artikel vind.

Reps voor degene die dat ook doet.

micha
17-06-2011, 03:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkeHqjNIAk&feature=youtu.be

blackadder
17-06-2011, 03:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkeHqjNIAk&feature=youtu.be
Repost.

blackadder
17-06-2011, 03:24
Tim Marchman can be reached at [email protected].


ik heb hem gemaild en gezegd wat ik van zijn artikel vind.

Reps voor degene die dat ook doet.
Had ik al voor jou gedaan.

Shikoku
17-06-2011, 03:39
Iedereen kan even door de wiki pagina van Alistair scrollen en al zijn overwinningen en verliespartijen van de jonge Alistair @ 205 even uitschrijven in een artikeltje natuurlijk. Dit staat natuurlijk los van de kwaliteiten van Alistair. En dat hij iedereen die hij wel heeft gevochten meestal in een minuut heeft gestopt.

Als er iemand een fraud is is het wel deze zogenaamde sportanalist zelf.

blackadder
17-06-2011, 05:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbZYHHG4PMc&feature=youtu.be

marcelt
17-06-2011, 08:51
Ik vind Alistair een fraud noemen ook ook onnodig beledigend. Maar wat betreft de MMA tegenstanders die alistair de afgelopen jaren heeft gehad heeft hij gewoon gelijk.

Kemal
17-06-2011, 09:07
pfff wat een klote stukje..

El Bambino
17-06-2011, 09:18
Tja...sommige punten heeft de man gelijk. 4 jaar lang en wat voor tegenstanders gevochten???

Shikoku
17-06-2011, 09:42
Tja...sommige punten heeft de man gelijk. 4 jaar lang en wat voor tegenstanders gevochten???

Maar om daar nou een artikel omheen te schrijven waarvan de bullshit je nog de ogen uit spuit hoeft ook weer niet.

Sjakiezwart
17-06-2011, 09:46
Bloodyelbow is een van de meer serieuze MMA-blogs met vaak ellenlange artikelen waar ze echter wel de spijker op de kop slaan. Hier hebben ze het over Overeem. Ze halen daar terecht Alistair zelf aan die aangeeft dat hij de commotie begrijpt. Enerzijds is hij 3-voudig kampioen en heeft hij veel gevochten. Anderzijds heeft hij echter de laatste jaren weining top 10 materiaal verslagen. Hij heeft dus nog wel wat te bewijzen op het hoogste niveau. Ik denk dat hij daar zaterdag mee gaat beginnen. Voor zijn wedstrijd tegen dat monster van een antonio Silva ben ik meer gespannen dan voor zijn wedstrijd tegen Werdum. Werdum is staand gewoon te beperkt voor Overeem.

Strikeforce Fight Card: Alistair Overeem May Be Overrated, But He Is No Fraud

There may not be another fighter on earth whose placement in rankings causes the same kind of stir as Alistair Overeem (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/122499/alistair-overeem). You can find fans who think that he doesn't belong in the top 20 of heavyweights due to a resume sorely lacking in marquee victories. The title of Strikeforce (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/promotion/strikeforce) Heavyweight Champion carries little weight when he has only defended the title once since winning it against Paul Buentello (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/130567/paul-buentello) back in November of 2007.
On the other end of the spectrum are places which rank Overeem as high as #2 in the world. Clearly based more on potential and a strong sense of success in the world of "what if?" It's Alistair's oft overlooked submission game combined with his K-1 (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/promotion/k-1) World Grand Prix championship that boosts him up the rankings. In his one win against a top ten ranked opponent during his current run, Overeem humiliated Brett Rogers (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/129237/brett-rogers). The fight would only last 3:40 before the bout was stopped due to strikes. Those poor unranked souls that step into against Overeem have not cracked the two minute mark during his current reign of terror.
It doesn't take long for Tim Marchman of Sports Illustrated to make clear which side of the fence he resides on (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tim_marchman/06/15/overeem/index.html#ixzz1PTO6sQpq):

Alistair Overeem, who owns about as many heavyweight titles he never defends as he does wins over impressive opponents, is a fraud. At those moments when you are tempted to think that fighting is, for all its bright promise, about the most thoroughly debased sport one can follow, think of this thick rope of Dutch muscle and despair.
This Saturday in Dallas, Overeem will take the first really serious fight he's had in four years, a quarterfinal bout in the Strikeforce Heavyweight Grand Prix. If he beats Fabricio Werdum (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/122505/fabricio-werdum), it will be, speaking generously, the fourth impressive win in a long career, and the first since 2006. That such things can be said of a man widely, if inexplicably, held to be one of the best heavyweights in the world makes him a fine example of what you might call the B.J. Penn (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/122540/b-j-penn) Fallacy.
We'll circle back to the idea of the "B.J. Penn Fallacy" shortly. Let's start with Overeem.
I'm assuming Mr. Marchman has little input into SI's MMA rankings, as their June rankings place Alistair in the #2 heavyweight spot. For reference, the USA TODAY / SB Nation Consensus Rankings have Alistair in the #7 overall spot.
The idea that a man with Overeem's skills is a "fraud" is a bit of a stretch, and the "first serious fight" thing overlooks the fact that Rogers was ranked in the top 10 of almost every ranking worth discussing at the time that fight took place.
My biggest problem with Marchman's article stems from the idea of this B.J. Penn Fallacy. He describes:

B.J. Penn deserves to have the fallacy named after him because he is widely thought of as a top welterweight contender despite not having won an important fight in that division since January of 2004, and thought of by many as the uncrowned lightweight champion even though he was thrashed twice by Frankie Edgar (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/122527/frankie-edgar), his obvious better, last year. No amount of evidence that Penn is not actually a great fighter will ever convince some large part of the public that he isn't one, because he looks like one, has the physical skills of one, and occasionally does things that a great fighter might do, such as lick an opponent's blood off his gloves. The mere invocation of his name creates a quantum phenomenon, where failures are evidence of superiority and results don't matter.
...
He knocks people out, he has been successful in another sport, he has title belts to wear, and his freakish muscles have muscles of their own to flex. All of this makes him seem like the sort of person who ought to swan around as a great heavyweight. That none of this counts for anything -- that physique doesn't rate in fighting, that a title belt you won by beating a bum and don't defend may as well have been bought on Craigslist, and so on -- doesn't quite seem to matter.
To say that Penn was "thrashed twice" by Edgar when it seems that the majority of fans and media scored the (very close) first fight for Penn is using extreme ignorance to make a point. As is acting as though Penn didn't have a long and sustained run as the dominant force in the lightweight division, making a better case than any other man for the best lightweight in the short history of this sport. And battling long time #2 Jon Fitch (http://www.sbnation.com/mma/fighter/122576/jon-fitch) to a draw at welterweight certainly would seem to indicate his contender status at 170.
Then there is the fact that Marchman writes Paul Buentello off as a "bum" despite his long career indicating that he's a good (but certainly not great) heavyweight who was 10-2 since 2003 when Overeem dominated him to win the inaugural Strikeforce heavyweight title.
It's understandable to have a desire to push people to get their view of Overeem in check. #2 in the world is overrating what Alistair has done to this point in his heavyweight career. But passing him off as a fraud or acting as though people should ignore the skills he has is foolish.
To his credit, Alistair makes it clear that he understands that he has plenty yet to prove. From a recent interview with MMA Fighting (http://mmafighting.com/2011/06/15/alistair-overeem-understands-why-some-dont-rank-him-in-top-5/) (HT: MMA Mania (http://www.mmamania.com/2011/6/16/2226568/strikeforce-alistair-overeem-can-understand-why-you-might-not-have#storyjump)):

"I understand very well (why I'm not ranked highly). There is an argument that, you could say 'Alistair is not top 10 or not top five because he has not fought this guy and that guy.' But I think where the fans get their motivation is that I did fight a lot, I did have a lot of knockouts or submissions. I am the only fighter to hold a major MMA belt with a major MMA organization as well as the K-1 organization, something that has... nobody has ever done that before so... There's arguments, there's arguments for both ways. But I can understand it that people don't place me in the top five but I also understand why people say, 'Yeah, he's the number one or number two or number three.' But the only way to find out is for those fights to happen and now that Zuffa has bought Strikeforce, it's one step closer and we're going to see it coming in two years. And I'm going to make sure I'm damn ready."
It's clearly time for Alistair to prove himself, and that starts with a hell of a fight with Fabricio Werdum this Saturday. If he really is so desperately overrated, it shouldn't take long for Werdum to prove it.

Ivo C.
17-06-2011, 10:14
"I understand very well (why I'm not ranked highly). There is an argument that, you could say 'Alistair is not top 10 or not top five because he has not fought this guy and that guy.' But I think where the fans get their motivation is that I did fight a lot, I did have a lot of knockouts or submissions. I am the only fighter to hold a major MMA belt with a major MMA organization as well as the K-1 organization, something that has... nobody has ever done that before so... There's arguments, there's arguments for both ways. But I can understand it that people don't place me in the top five but I also understand why people say, 'Yeah, he's the number one or number two or number three.' But the only way to find out is for those fights to happen and now that Zuffa has bought Strikeforce, it's one step closer and we're going to see it coming in two years. And I'm going to make sure I'm damn ready."

This is all that matters. The future....

Harrie Nak
17-06-2011, 10:41
Repost (http://www.mixfight.nl/forum/showthread.php?110367-Het-Grote-Strikeforce-WGP-HW-Tournament-2011-Topic&p=1044535#post1044535).

D1987
17-06-2011, 13:09
Heb de beste man ook een mailtje gestuurd

micha
17-06-2011, 16:52
fijn ik hoop dat hij Bloodstainlane video ook ziet

Briant
17-06-2011, 17:55
Wij weten natuurlijk van de kwaliteiten van Alistair omdat wij elke wedstrijd van hem gezien hebben en zijn ontwikkeling hebben kunnen volgen. Maar in Amerika hebben ze alleen zijn Strikeforce gevechten gezien en dan lezen ze de record en trekken hun conclusie. Dus op zich een begrijpelijke actie. Het is aan Alistair om te bewijzen dat hj zo goed is als wij weten dat hij is.

heinz
17-06-2011, 18:16
Ik hoop toch zo dat Overeem die van Werdum helemaal de puinpoeder slaat.
Die amerikanen onderschatten hem echt.
Kan mij weleens ergeren hoe ze over hem praten op Sherdog.

mikeymcd
17-06-2011, 18:29
Ik hoop toch zo dat Overeem die van Werdum helemaal de puinpoeder slaat.
Die amerikanen onderschatten hem echt.
Kan mij weleens ergeren hoe ze over hem praten op Sherdog.

Hoop het ook en hoop niet dat wij degene zijn die hem overschatten.

Strange Cutbean
17-06-2011, 23:43
Ik hoop toch zo dat Overeem die van Werdum helemaal de puinpoeder slaat.
Die amerikanen onderschatten hem echt.
Kan mij weleens ergeren hoe ze over hem praten op Sherdog.

Op Sherdog misschien maar daar is het het zelfde als hier op de diverse fora. De meeste Amerikanen die ik hier spreek vinden Allistair wel degelijk heel gevaarlijk en denken dan ook dat hij de titel gaat pakken. Die publicaties; Da's allemaal stemmingmakerij. En waarom zouden die Amerikanen dan allemaal achter Werdum staan, omdat hij zelf Amerikaan is? Dacht het niet hij is ook 'maar' een Braziliaan.

blackadder
17-06-2011, 23:57
Dacht het niet hij is ook 'maar' een Braziliaan.
Erger nog. Werdum is een UFC reject. Dus zo goed is hij niet.

Strange Cutbean
18-06-2011, 00:14
Daar gaan we dus deze zaterdag achterkomen!

Strange Cutbean
18-06-2011, 00:20
fijn ik hoop dat hij Bloodstainlane video ook ziet

Ik denk dat zo'n video alleen maar contraproductief werkt.

Strange Cutbean
18-06-2011, 01:35
Talking Strikeforce at Dallas Mavericks Victory Parade (http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/06/17/talking-strikeforce-at-dallas-mavericks-victory-parade/)

Ik bedoel maar.

Tykill
18-06-2011, 02:01
vervelend stuk idd

micha
18-06-2011, 03:14
Ik denk dat zo'n video alleen maar contraproductief werkt.


Bloostainlane heeft zelfs Dana White zover gekregen dat hij reageerde op twitter

Strange Cutbean
18-06-2011, 04:06
Bloostainlane heeft zelfs Dana White zover gekregen dat hij reageerde op twitter

Misschien omdat die twee toch al de zelfde vocabulaire delen?