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20-09-2006, 14:50
mooi artikel
15.09.2006
Rematch
Kerr and Gurgel meet again to take a look back – and forward – at the legendary wrestler’s career
By Rafael Quintanilha
On January 19, 1997, Mark Kerr made his ring debut, in World Vale-Tudo Championship 3, held in São Paulo. Those were different times: gloves and weight-limits hadn’t come along, and few moves were forbidden. No one knew what the muscular American could do, and on the other side of the brackets was the favorite: world champion Fábio Gurgel, who had, in 91, defended the gentle art in the challenge between Jiu-Jitsu and luta livre.
After two wins for each athlete, they fought the final. To the public’s major surprise, Kerr was more than pure strength. About 45lbs heavier, the talented wrestler imposed himself with punches and head-strikes that damaged the black-belt’s left eye. After 30 minutes, Kerr was declared winner by unanimous decision.
Gurgel’s MMA career stopped right there, though not his Jiu-Jitsu one, for he went on to climb the highest step on the podium in three subsequent Worlds’; Kerr, in his turn, attained victories that made him “the world’s most feared man,� as well as great ADCC performances. But a strong addiction assailed Mark, leading him to what was believed to be the end of his career; precisely then he announces a comeback. There was, definitely, some catching up to do; with the help of GRACIE Magazine, now the warriors meet again.
Fábio Gurgel: We haven’t heard from you in a while. Where have you been?
First of all, Fábio, let me say I respect you a lot, and that you are a very tough competitor. A couple of years ago I had my first child, so I spent that first year just trying to be a dad. The second year, unfortunately, I went through a divorce. So it was really tough, the last couple of years, to get my heart into wanting to compete again, wanting to train hard. After my divorce I thought, well, I guess I’ll go back to fighting. And that’s what my last year has been – preparing to come back. My body can still do a lot, but not everything that I want it to, like I don’t heal as fast.
I’m concentrating probably 75% of my time on my hand. Getting my hand at a point where I feel comfortable sparring. I have to get my hand to be faster, better, more accurate. I’ve been training a lot with some really good boxers in Denver.
FG: Is your comeback purely financial, or is there also the will to go back to the place you once had in MMA?
It’s both. It’s financial, and, if I wanna go back to being a fighter, then I really want to be able to fight for a championship. I think any fighter in his heart knows that it’s a really hard business to be in if you’re just out there for the money. But financially, yeah, it’s part of it. The other part is I think I left fighting prematurely. I think that I have left some fights out there that I’m capable of doing. I still think that I’m capable of competing against some of the best fighters in the world.
GRACIE Magazine: Do you think there is time to climb those steps again?
I do. A lot of it was a question of whether my body could handle the rigorous training, because it’s really not the fighting that takes it out of you – it’s the training. You can probably ask any fighter in the world and they’ll say it’s not fighting; they could probably fight every single week. It’s the training – it’s how hard you have to train to fight at the level everybody is fighting at now. I have answered some of those questions. Yeah, I can train at a very high level and reach that kind of conditioning.
GM: And do you have the willpower it takes?
I do. And that’s the biggest thing in the world right now, for me to figure out whether I had the desire to do it. And the biggest question I had to answer was: can I still get in there with guys that are ten years younger? And they want all the prestige, titles – everything that I once had. And it really came to the fact that, you know what, I still can do it. I still can compete, I can still have that hunger to get up every day, when you’re sore, tired, banged up, and compete every day in the training room.
GM: How much weight did you lose?
I weigh about 228lbs now; my maximum weight was 275lbs.
FG: I was really moved by the documentary “The Smashing Machine,� to learn about your painkiller addiction. Why did you decide to make it public? Was it a choice?
In part it was, and in part it was not. When I got a call from a college friend who was doing movies at the time, I guess I was kind of arrogant to believe I could hide it from friends. A lot of it was when they came and filmed a controversial fight that I had with Vovchanchyn, and then after that they said, “Okay, there’s something wrong here.� They ended up saying, “How much of this do you want to tell?� And eventually I just said, “Let’s get it all on film, then afterwards we’ll sort it out and feel what kind of story it is.� ’Cause I felt it was a story that you normally wouldn’t tell people, but it kind of took on a life of its own and I realized that maybe through the process of the whole thing it could help somebody. ’Cause if a big, tough guy like me could fall into that life, where I was taking pain medication all the time, other people might go, “Wow, there’s that big, tough guy and he is getting help.� So maybe it could help somebody else. That was kind of the idea.
GM: Are you completely recovered?
Yes, it’s been a long road. That was the scary part about wanting to come back and fight. Knowing that I would have to put myself in a situation where maybe I got injured and I might have to take some medication and stuff like that. But I’ve really gone out of my way to make sure I took care of my body better, and I’m doing things better than I did in the past.
GM: How did you get off the medication?
I had to go through a treatment center, and they gave me the tools to put things in perspective, and that was the big thing for me; to get the tools I needed not to put myself in a situation where I’d be tempted to go back to that again.
FG: You are a role model to many people as an outstanding athlete. Do you think the documentary smudged your image?
There are always people who are gonna criticize you no matter what you do. And I said, “I’m gonna have my fans and I’m gonna have people who are gonna say, ‘What were you thinking?’� [Laughs.] I took everything and said, people are either gonna respect me for this or they’re not. And I just left it at that.
I’ve gotten a lot of really good feedback on it; it was good to get that feedback and to know that I wasn’t crazy for doing it, and that people actually appreciated my honesty. The IFL started because the owners saw the documentary. So that’s one really good thing that came from it.
Realistically, if I hadn’t done the film... well, really, it’s hard to say. I don’t wanna take all the credit for it, because Kurt [Otto, the League’s creator] is obviously a very intelligent guy, and so are the people he has working for him. They saw an opportunity to improve something that could be lucrative for everybody.
GM: How did you like your appearance at the IFL’s first show?
It was great. The promoters had told me that they got the idea from the documentary that I did. It was a really big honor; they gave me an award and thanked me for what I shared with the MMA community.
GM: Are you going to work with the League regularly, or was that it?
I spoke to the owner a couple of days ago, and hopefully my team can be among the next four that will enter the League – well, not hopefully: I have a team anytime I wanna pick it. The important thing right now is that I get organized enough to present a good team and have my guys compete with Renzo’s, Maurice Smith’s, Pat Miletich’s and Bas Rutten’s.
FG: How much Jiu-Jitsu have you trained since our fight – if any, – and with whom?
When I started fighting I started going out to Beverly Hills Jiu-Jitsu; it was before Marcos VinÃ*cius took over. I was training with Marco Ruas, Pedro Rizzo, Oleg Taktarov and Bas Rutten. They really got me to understand what fighting was about and how to train in a way other than wrestling. I started to pick up Jiu-Jitsu there. Jiu-Jitsu practitioners used to embrace only Jiu-Jitsu, like “Jiu-Jitsu is best all for itself.â€?
But a lot of guys now understand that Jiu-Jitsu has to have other parts to it in order for a Jiu-Jitsu fighter to be really good at MMA. So, back when I started, many Jiu-Jitsu guys would come to me and wanna learn wrestling, so we would trade out. It wasn’t high-level, big-name Jiu-Jitsu guys, but it was enough for me to get an idea of what a Jiu-Jitsu guy was trying to do, from a guard position, because I didn’t know, I had never fought anybody off the back.
I wouldn’t tell anybody that aspires to be a good mixed martial artist that they could skip Jiu-Jitsu. In my opinion, the guys who don’t put a lot of effort on learning what Jiu-Jitsu is about, learning some of the setups – they’ll end up getting beat by Jiu-Jitsu guys, that’s the way I feel.
FG: Do you think a difference in weight is determinant to the result of a fight?
In certain cases, yes. Without a doubt. I’m glad to see that they’ve implemented weight classes to some extent, because when I fought you I was 250lbs and you were like 205lbs – that’s a hard thing for anybody to deal with, when I had that much weight on you constantly, that much pressure. I think it’s a factor to some extent, but there are fighters who are really skilled, and even when they’re outweighed they’ll end up winning. Like Royce Gracie. The guys he fought were monsters. And he is really good, to say the least. He really put the MMA world on their head.
FG: Would you lose weight to fight a lighter opponent?
Yes, I really feel by the end of this year that I’m gonna drop down to light-heavyweight. I think I can do it – I believe that I’m going to be a big light-heavyweight.
FG: What would you like to do after you retire from fighting?I can really see myself involved with the IFL. I think they have a commitment of at least three to five seasons, and I think they’ll develop a fan base for it. One thing is: I could be a coach – Kurt said, “There’s a spot waiting for you�; I know that’s available. I’m really passionate about teaching wrestling. I think the future is gonna see me involved with the IFL, and from that work as a coach I think I can become involved with some other part of the organization.
They’re smart men. [Gareb] Shamus, who’s one of the big driving forces besides Kurt behind it, is into this pop culture, catching on... I think they caught MMA at the right time, where they can actually promote it, make it cross over to mainstream media, cross over to a lot of people who, before, you just couldn’t reach.
FG: Do you believe in winning at any cost?
[Ponders a lot.] You know what? I do. You have rules when you fight. As long as you can stay within the rules, yeah – at any cost, yes. You’re out there competing, so why wouldn’t you compete as hard as you can within the rules to try to win? That’s how I feel.
GM: You were once one of the best wrestlers in the world, and you have told GM it was nearly impossible to take you down. Is it still?
Well, Arona took me down when I came down to Brazil for the Abu Dhabi. It may not be impossible, but it’s really hard. I don’t like fighting off my back, I don’t like giving up positions. So if someone attacks me to take me down I fight it as hard as I possibly can. My wrestling is there. I have spent 25 years wrestling. I’m just trying to get everything else back to where it was when I was competing four, five times a year.
GM: Among today’s top fighters, who has the best wrestling techniques?
Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture. And a lot of the other guys: [Rodrigo] Nogueira defends well against takedowns, and a lot of the guys are starting to incorporate takedown defense.
GM: What do you think of the use of strikes with the head (a weapon you used against Gurgel)?
I don’t think it has any place. In order for the sport to be accepted across the board, the rules had to be changed. You can take a head-butt to the face and the face-bone is broken, and a very talented athlete can be done fighting.
GM: As an experienced world-class athlete, do you think the sports industry is responsible for drug abuse?
In some sense, yes. If you look at the athletes in the sports world today, they’re incredible. Looking back on it, steroids don’t have a place in any sport. A lot of people have misconceptions. You can get everybody on steroids and you’re still gonna have standouts. Even if you take steroids you have to work hard. It’s not a sure recipe for success. If you risk doing that stuff, like the guy who just fought De la Hoya [Ricardo Mayorga], you run the risk of getting caught, sanctioned. It just doesn’t have a place. It’s a shame that some of the promoters want the athletes to be superhuman; they turn a blind eye on what the athlete does and leave the responsibility on their shoulders. But also, if athletes choose to do those things, they have to be responsible for it.
GM: So there is still room for talent. Whom do you admire for their talent?
You see, football players are enormous, basketball players are so much different from even ten years ago. There are exceptions, like Brazil’s soccer players, who are just more talented than everybody else. One fighter that I really do like is Nogueira. He is very talented, and there are a lot of little things that he does very well. A guy who I also admire who’s not fighting right now is Carlos Newton.
GM: You once told GM, “People ask me if I take [steroids], and I say I do what I need to stand out in my sport.� Looking back, were the things you did worth it?
Yes. I look back and there’s a couple of different choices that I’d make. But the choices that I’ve made I’ve taken responsibility for, and the sacrifices that I made were worth it. I really liked being able to fight at the level that I did. I liked the benefits that came from it, the experiences that I’ve had, the places that I’ve been able to go, the people that I’ve been able to meet – all the way across the board. And to do it again I’d probably make a couple of different choices, but overall I’d probably pretty much stick to the same game plan. Fighting has been good to me in so many different ways.
GM: Did you achieve your goals?
I achieved some of them. That’s why I’m back fighting again. I think I left a couple of things out there that I still want to accomplish. I wanted to have a series of belt defenses, to hold a title for more than a year. We’ll just have to see what the future holds. I’ll get back in the ring and see if I still have the desire to do it. I think I do.
15.09.2006
Rematch
Kerr and Gurgel meet again to take a look back – and forward – at the legendary wrestler’s career
By Rafael Quintanilha
On January 19, 1997, Mark Kerr made his ring debut, in World Vale-Tudo Championship 3, held in São Paulo. Those were different times: gloves and weight-limits hadn’t come along, and few moves were forbidden. No one knew what the muscular American could do, and on the other side of the brackets was the favorite: world champion Fábio Gurgel, who had, in 91, defended the gentle art in the challenge between Jiu-Jitsu and luta livre.
After two wins for each athlete, they fought the final. To the public’s major surprise, Kerr was more than pure strength. About 45lbs heavier, the talented wrestler imposed himself with punches and head-strikes that damaged the black-belt’s left eye. After 30 minutes, Kerr was declared winner by unanimous decision.
Gurgel’s MMA career stopped right there, though not his Jiu-Jitsu one, for he went on to climb the highest step on the podium in three subsequent Worlds’; Kerr, in his turn, attained victories that made him “the world’s most feared man,� as well as great ADCC performances. But a strong addiction assailed Mark, leading him to what was believed to be the end of his career; precisely then he announces a comeback. There was, definitely, some catching up to do; with the help of GRACIE Magazine, now the warriors meet again.
Fábio Gurgel: We haven’t heard from you in a while. Where have you been?
First of all, Fábio, let me say I respect you a lot, and that you are a very tough competitor. A couple of years ago I had my first child, so I spent that first year just trying to be a dad. The second year, unfortunately, I went through a divorce. So it was really tough, the last couple of years, to get my heart into wanting to compete again, wanting to train hard. After my divorce I thought, well, I guess I’ll go back to fighting. And that’s what my last year has been – preparing to come back. My body can still do a lot, but not everything that I want it to, like I don’t heal as fast.
I’m concentrating probably 75% of my time on my hand. Getting my hand at a point where I feel comfortable sparring. I have to get my hand to be faster, better, more accurate. I’ve been training a lot with some really good boxers in Denver.
FG: Is your comeback purely financial, or is there also the will to go back to the place you once had in MMA?
It’s both. It’s financial, and, if I wanna go back to being a fighter, then I really want to be able to fight for a championship. I think any fighter in his heart knows that it’s a really hard business to be in if you’re just out there for the money. But financially, yeah, it’s part of it. The other part is I think I left fighting prematurely. I think that I have left some fights out there that I’m capable of doing. I still think that I’m capable of competing against some of the best fighters in the world.
GRACIE Magazine: Do you think there is time to climb those steps again?
I do. A lot of it was a question of whether my body could handle the rigorous training, because it’s really not the fighting that takes it out of you – it’s the training. You can probably ask any fighter in the world and they’ll say it’s not fighting; they could probably fight every single week. It’s the training – it’s how hard you have to train to fight at the level everybody is fighting at now. I have answered some of those questions. Yeah, I can train at a very high level and reach that kind of conditioning.
GM: And do you have the willpower it takes?
I do. And that’s the biggest thing in the world right now, for me to figure out whether I had the desire to do it. And the biggest question I had to answer was: can I still get in there with guys that are ten years younger? And they want all the prestige, titles – everything that I once had. And it really came to the fact that, you know what, I still can do it. I still can compete, I can still have that hunger to get up every day, when you’re sore, tired, banged up, and compete every day in the training room.
GM: How much weight did you lose?
I weigh about 228lbs now; my maximum weight was 275lbs.
FG: I was really moved by the documentary “The Smashing Machine,� to learn about your painkiller addiction. Why did you decide to make it public? Was it a choice?
In part it was, and in part it was not. When I got a call from a college friend who was doing movies at the time, I guess I was kind of arrogant to believe I could hide it from friends. A lot of it was when they came and filmed a controversial fight that I had with Vovchanchyn, and then after that they said, “Okay, there’s something wrong here.� They ended up saying, “How much of this do you want to tell?� And eventually I just said, “Let’s get it all on film, then afterwards we’ll sort it out and feel what kind of story it is.� ’Cause I felt it was a story that you normally wouldn’t tell people, but it kind of took on a life of its own and I realized that maybe through the process of the whole thing it could help somebody. ’Cause if a big, tough guy like me could fall into that life, where I was taking pain medication all the time, other people might go, “Wow, there’s that big, tough guy and he is getting help.� So maybe it could help somebody else. That was kind of the idea.
GM: Are you completely recovered?
Yes, it’s been a long road. That was the scary part about wanting to come back and fight. Knowing that I would have to put myself in a situation where maybe I got injured and I might have to take some medication and stuff like that. But I’ve really gone out of my way to make sure I took care of my body better, and I’m doing things better than I did in the past.
GM: How did you get off the medication?
I had to go through a treatment center, and they gave me the tools to put things in perspective, and that was the big thing for me; to get the tools I needed not to put myself in a situation where I’d be tempted to go back to that again.
FG: You are a role model to many people as an outstanding athlete. Do you think the documentary smudged your image?
There are always people who are gonna criticize you no matter what you do. And I said, “I’m gonna have my fans and I’m gonna have people who are gonna say, ‘What were you thinking?’� [Laughs.] I took everything and said, people are either gonna respect me for this or they’re not. And I just left it at that.
I’ve gotten a lot of really good feedback on it; it was good to get that feedback and to know that I wasn’t crazy for doing it, and that people actually appreciated my honesty. The IFL started because the owners saw the documentary. So that’s one really good thing that came from it.
Realistically, if I hadn’t done the film... well, really, it’s hard to say. I don’t wanna take all the credit for it, because Kurt [Otto, the League’s creator] is obviously a very intelligent guy, and so are the people he has working for him. They saw an opportunity to improve something that could be lucrative for everybody.
GM: How did you like your appearance at the IFL’s first show?
It was great. The promoters had told me that they got the idea from the documentary that I did. It was a really big honor; they gave me an award and thanked me for what I shared with the MMA community.
GM: Are you going to work with the League regularly, or was that it?
I spoke to the owner a couple of days ago, and hopefully my team can be among the next four that will enter the League – well, not hopefully: I have a team anytime I wanna pick it. The important thing right now is that I get organized enough to present a good team and have my guys compete with Renzo’s, Maurice Smith’s, Pat Miletich’s and Bas Rutten’s.
FG: How much Jiu-Jitsu have you trained since our fight – if any, – and with whom?
When I started fighting I started going out to Beverly Hills Jiu-Jitsu; it was before Marcos VinÃ*cius took over. I was training with Marco Ruas, Pedro Rizzo, Oleg Taktarov and Bas Rutten. They really got me to understand what fighting was about and how to train in a way other than wrestling. I started to pick up Jiu-Jitsu there. Jiu-Jitsu practitioners used to embrace only Jiu-Jitsu, like “Jiu-Jitsu is best all for itself.â€?
But a lot of guys now understand that Jiu-Jitsu has to have other parts to it in order for a Jiu-Jitsu fighter to be really good at MMA. So, back when I started, many Jiu-Jitsu guys would come to me and wanna learn wrestling, so we would trade out. It wasn’t high-level, big-name Jiu-Jitsu guys, but it was enough for me to get an idea of what a Jiu-Jitsu guy was trying to do, from a guard position, because I didn’t know, I had never fought anybody off the back.
I wouldn’t tell anybody that aspires to be a good mixed martial artist that they could skip Jiu-Jitsu. In my opinion, the guys who don’t put a lot of effort on learning what Jiu-Jitsu is about, learning some of the setups – they’ll end up getting beat by Jiu-Jitsu guys, that’s the way I feel.
FG: Do you think a difference in weight is determinant to the result of a fight?
In certain cases, yes. Without a doubt. I’m glad to see that they’ve implemented weight classes to some extent, because when I fought you I was 250lbs and you were like 205lbs – that’s a hard thing for anybody to deal with, when I had that much weight on you constantly, that much pressure. I think it’s a factor to some extent, but there are fighters who are really skilled, and even when they’re outweighed they’ll end up winning. Like Royce Gracie. The guys he fought were monsters. And he is really good, to say the least. He really put the MMA world on their head.
FG: Would you lose weight to fight a lighter opponent?
Yes, I really feel by the end of this year that I’m gonna drop down to light-heavyweight. I think I can do it – I believe that I’m going to be a big light-heavyweight.
FG: What would you like to do after you retire from fighting?I can really see myself involved with the IFL. I think they have a commitment of at least three to five seasons, and I think they’ll develop a fan base for it. One thing is: I could be a coach – Kurt said, “There’s a spot waiting for you�; I know that’s available. I’m really passionate about teaching wrestling. I think the future is gonna see me involved with the IFL, and from that work as a coach I think I can become involved with some other part of the organization.
They’re smart men. [Gareb] Shamus, who’s one of the big driving forces besides Kurt behind it, is into this pop culture, catching on... I think they caught MMA at the right time, where they can actually promote it, make it cross over to mainstream media, cross over to a lot of people who, before, you just couldn’t reach.
FG: Do you believe in winning at any cost?
[Ponders a lot.] You know what? I do. You have rules when you fight. As long as you can stay within the rules, yeah – at any cost, yes. You’re out there competing, so why wouldn’t you compete as hard as you can within the rules to try to win? That’s how I feel.
GM: You were once one of the best wrestlers in the world, and you have told GM it was nearly impossible to take you down. Is it still?
Well, Arona took me down when I came down to Brazil for the Abu Dhabi. It may not be impossible, but it’s really hard. I don’t like fighting off my back, I don’t like giving up positions. So if someone attacks me to take me down I fight it as hard as I possibly can. My wrestling is there. I have spent 25 years wrestling. I’m just trying to get everything else back to where it was when I was competing four, five times a year.
GM: Among today’s top fighters, who has the best wrestling techniques?
Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture. And a lot of the other guys: [Rodrigo] Nogueira defends well against takedowns, and a lot of the guys are starting to incorporate takedown defense.
GM: What do you think of the use of strikes with the head (a weapon you used against Gurgel)?
I don’t think it has any place. In order for the sport to be accepted across the board, the rules had to be changed. You can take a head-butt to the face and the face-bone is broken, and a very talented athlete can be done fighting.
GM: As an experienced world-class athlete, do you think the sports industry is responsible for drug abuse?
In some sense, yes. If you look at the athletes in the sports world today, they’re incredible. Looking back on it, steroids don’t have a place in any sport. A lot of people have misconceptions. You can get everybody on steroids and you’re still gonna have standouts. Even if you take steroids you have to work hard. It’s not a sure recipe for success. If you risk doing that stuff, like the guy who just fought De la Hoya [Ricardo Mayorga], you run the risk of getting caught, sanctioned. It just doesn’t have a place. It’s a shame that some of the promoters want the athletes to be superhuman; they turn a blind eye on what the athlete does and leave the responsibility on their shoulders. But also, if athletes choose to do those things, they have to be responsible for it.
GM: So there is still room for talent. Whom do you admire for their talent?
You see, football players are enormous, basketball players are so much different from even ten years ago. There are exceptions, like Brazil’s soccer players, who are just more talented than everybody else. One fighter that I really do like is Nogueira. He is very talented, and there are a lot of little things that he does very well. A guy who I also admire who’s not fighting right now is Carlos Newton.
GM: You once told GM, “People ask me if I take [steroids], and I say I do what I need to stand out in my sport.� Looking back, were the things you did worth it?
Yes. I look back and there’s a couple of different choices that I’d make. But the choices that I’ve made I’ve taken responsibility for, and the sacrifices that I made were worth it. I really liked being able to fight at the level that I did. I liked the benefits that came from it, the experiences that I’ve had, the places that I’ve been able to go, the people that I’ve been able to meet – all the way across the board. And to do it again I’d probably make a couple of different choices, but overall I’d probably pretty much stick to the same game plan. Fighting has been good to me in so many different ways.
GM: Did you achieve your goals?
I achieved some of them. That’s why I’m back fighting again. I think I left a couple of things out there that I still want to accomplish. I wanted to have a series of belt defenses, to hold a title for more than a year. We’ll just have to see what the future holds. I’ll get back in the ring and see if I still have the desire to do it. I think I do.