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View Full Version : Lactic acid is not muscles' foe, it's fuel



Chico
04-12-2007, 20:08
Ik kwam dit artikel tegen... vond het interresant.. weet niet of het al algemene kennis is.. maar ik wist het iig niet.. :blush:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=1&ex=1305432000&en=2778e99d7eab85a6&ei=5&oref=slogin



By GINA KOLATA (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/gina_kolata/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: May 16, 2006

Everyone who has even thought about exercising has heard the warnings about lactic acid. It builds up in your muscles. It is what makes your muscles burn. Its buildup is what makes your muscles tire and give out.
Ben Stansall/European Pressphoto Agency




Coaches and personal trainers tell athletes and exercisers that they have to learn to work out at just below their "lactic threshold," that point of diminishing returns when lactic acid starts to accumulate. Some athletes even have blood tests to find their personal lactic thresholds.
But that, it turns out, is all wrong. Lactic acid is actually a fuel, not a caustic waste product. Muscles make it deliberately, producing it from glucose, and they burn it to obtain energy. The reason trained athletes can perform so hard and so long is because their intense training causes their muscles to adapt so they more readily and efficiently absorb lactic acid.

The notion that lactic acid was bad took hold more than a century ago, said George A. Brooks, a professor in the department of integrative biology at the University of California (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_california/index.html?inline=nyt-org), Berkeley. It stuck because it seemed to make so much sense.
"It's one of the classic mistakes in the history of science," Dr. Brooks said.
Its origins lie in a study by a Nobel laureate, Otto Meyerhof, who in the early years of the 20th century cut a frog in half and put its bottom half in a jar. The frog's muscles had no circulation — no source of oxygen or energy.

Dr. Myerhoff gave the frog's leg electric shocks to make the muscles contract, but after a few twitches, the muscles stopped moving. Then, when Dr. Myerhoff examined the muscles, he discovered that they were bathed in lactic acid.
A theory was born. Lack of oxygen to muscles leads to lactic acid, leads to fatigue.

Athletes were told that they should spend most of their effort exercising aerobically, using glucose as a fuel. If they tried to spend too much time exercising harder, in the anaerobic zone, they were told, they would pay a price, that lactic acid would accumulate in the muscles, forcing them to stop.

Few scientists questioned this view, Dr. Brooks said. But, he said, he became interested in it in the 1960's, when he was running track at Queens College and his coach told him that his performance was limited by a buildup of lactic acid.
When he graduated and began working on a Ph.D. in exercise physiology, he decided to study the lactic acid hypothesis for his dissertation.
"I gave rats radioactive lactic acid, and I found that they burned it faster than anything else I could give them," Dr. Brooks said.
It looked as if lactic acid was there for a reason. It was a source of energy.

Dr. Brooks said he published the finding in the late 70's. Other researchers challenged him at meetings and in print.
"I had huge fights, I had terrible trouble getting my grants funded, I had my papers rejected," Dr. Brooks recalled. But he soldiered on, conducting more elaborate studies with rats and, years later, moving on to humans. Every time, with every study, his results were consistent with his radical idea.

Eventually, other researchers confirmed the work. And gradually, the thinking among exercise physiologists began to change.
"The evidence has continued to mount," said L. Bruce Gladden, a professor of health and human performance at Auburn University. "It became clear that it is not so simple as to say, Lactic acid is a bad thing and it causes fatigue."

As for the idea that lactic acid causes muscle soreness, Dr. Gladden said, that never made sense.
"Lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within an hour of exercise," he said. "You get sore one to three days later. The time frame is not consistent, and the mechanisms have not been found."

The understanding now is that muscle cells convert glucose or glycogen to lactic acid. The lactic acid is taken up and used as a fuel by mitochondria, the energy factories in muscle cells.
Mitochondria even have a special transporter protein to move the substance into them, Dr. Brooks found. Intense training makes a difference, he said, because it can make double the mitochondrial mass.
It is clear that the old lactic acid theory cannot explain what is happening to muscles, Dr. Brooks and others said.

Yet, Dr. Brooks said, even though coaches often believed in the myth of the lactic acid threshold, they ended up training athletes in the best way possible to increase their mitochondria. "Coaches have understood things the scientists didn't," he said.
Through trial and error, coaches learned that athletic performance improved when athletes worked on endurance, running longer and longer distances, for example.

That, it turns out, increased the mass of their muscle mitochondria, letting them burn more lactic acid and allowing the muscles to work harder and longer.
Just before a race, coaches often tell athletes to train very hard in brief spurts.
That extra stress increases the mitochondria mass even more, Dr. Brooks said, and is the reason for improved performance.

And the scientists?
They took much longer to figure it out.
"They said, 'You're anaerobic, you need more oxygen,' " Dr. Brooks said. "The scientists were stuck in 1920."

Fr3ddy
04-12-2007, 20:51
Lactacyd is voor je kut

thrillseekah
04-12-2007, 21:09
Lactacyd is voor je kut

whhahahahaaa:D

wel interessant stukje

FOCUS
04-12-2007, 21:47
bekende zooi,
maar wel goede zooi om te posten:)

thnx..
betekent overigens niet dat je maar onbeperkt lactische trainingen moet/kan uitvoeren..

Chico
04-12-2007, 21:57
man ik moet er nog achter komen wat lactische trainingen precies zijn ;)

zover ik het begreep is dat als je te hard gaat je spieren verzuren :D

Kim
11-12-2007, 09:59
Toch typisch dan dat je anno 2007 het tegenovergestelde leert op school.

Chico
11-12-2007, 10:53
tja als er iets grillig is, is het wel de wetenschap

FOCUS
11-12-2007, 16:09
ff beetje nuanceren.

melkzuur wordt gevorm wanneer er in afwezigheid van zuurstof energie wordt geleverd. Naarmate de melkzuurconcentratie in een spier toeneemt, zal het moeiilijker worden om die spier aan te spannen.
Je lichaam heeft echter een 'buffer', welke ook kunstmatig kan worden aangebracht, bijv door natriumbicarbonaat in te nemen (nadeel: gasvorming en coordinatieverlies).
Echter, je lichaam kan het melkzuur ook aanwenden ter verbranding.

Een beetje melkzuur in je spier is niet voldoende om een nadelig effect te ondervinden, maar kan wel snel aangesproken worden als energiebron.
Vandaar dat uit onderzoek naar voren komt, dat een lichte 'voorverzuring' onder sprinters tot betere prestaties kan leiden.

Het is nog altijd belangrijk voor een vechter om een zo hoog mogelijk 'omslagpunt' van aeroob naar anaeroob te hebben..

Tony
11-12-2007, 23:18
Focus, nu je het hebt over voorverzuring..
Ik meen me een stuk te herinneren van onze basito rutten.

hij zei ooit eens dat hij voor een gevecht als een gek tekeer ging in de kleedkamers... enerzijds was het een goeie warming up... Anderzijds was het prima om je lichaam flink te laten zweten (is minder grip voor tegenstander)..

Maar het allerbelangrijkste.. hij deed dit zodat hij verzuurde.. Hij had liever dat dat gebeurde in de kleedkamers... zo kon hij en zijn spieren eraan wennen.. dat vond ie beter dan dat dat tijdens het gevecht gebeurde...

Wie kan dit stukje hier plaatsen... (of ontkrachten)... kan zijn dat ik het fout heb.

Evilman
12-12-2007, 23:28
lol lijkt me sterk.
je hebt flink wat tijd nodig voor die shit
weer uit je spieren is en je er vol tegenaan kan.

FOCUS
12-12-2007, 23:59
Fighting athletes' muscle fatigue

Mary Duenwald
International Herald Tribune
Thursday, August 26, 2004

NEW YORK Sprinters, weight-lifters and other athletes who push themselves to the limit of exertion are familiar with muscle fatigue, and many of them blame that sore, sluggish feeling on lactic acid. But a close look at the electrical and chemical activity that occurs within muscle fibers suggests that lactic acid, far from causing fatigue, actually helps hard-working muscles keep going.

Experimenting with a single muscle fiber from a laboratory rat, researchers at La Trobe University in Melbourne and at the University of Aarhus in Denmark observed the effects of acidity on muscle action.

After a muscle fiber has worked intensely for a while, it begins to lose potassium, and that dampens the fiber's ability to contract. Lactic acid, by blocking the movement of chloride across the fiber's surface membrane, helps the muscle fiber recover its ability to work, said Thomas Pedersen, a doctoral student at the University of Aarhus, co-author of the study.

The fatigue an athlete feels is probably caused by the loss of potassium rather than the buildup of lactic acid, Pedersen said.

The finding may explain why some 100-meter runners find it beneficial to sprint a short distance 10 to 15 minutes before a race. "You build up a little bit of lactic acid to prepare your muscles for the coming exertion," Pedersen said.

[Link] (http://www.iht.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi)

1 7 - 0 5 - 2 0 0 6
Lactic Acid Is Not Muscles' Foe, It's Fuel

By GINA KOLATA
New York Times
May 16, 2006

Everyone who has even thought about exercising has heard the warnings about lactic acid. It builds up in your muscles. It is what makes your muscles burn. Its buildup is what makes your muscles tire and give out.

Coaches and personal trainers tell athletes and exercisers that they have to learn to work out at just below their "lactic threshold," that point of diminishing returns when lactic acid starts to accumulate. Some athletes even have blood tests to find their personal lactic thresholds.

But that, it turns out, is all wrong. Lactic acid is actually a fuel, not a caustic waste product. Muscles make it deliberately, producing it from glucose, and they burn it to obtain energy. The reason trained athletes can perform so hard and so long is because their intense training causes their muscles to adapt so they more readily and efficiently absorb lactic acid.

The notion that lactic acid was bad took hold more than a century ago, said George A. Brooks, a professor in the department of integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley. It stuck because it seemed to make so much sense.

"It's one of the classic mistakes in the history of science," Dr. Brooks said.

Its origins lie in a study by a Nobel laureate, Otto Meyerhof, who in the early years of the 20th century cut a frog in half and put its bottom half in a jar. The frog's muscles had no circulation — no source of oxygen or energy.

Dr. Myerhoff gave the frog's leg electric shocks to make the muscles contract, but after a few twitches, the muscles stopped moving. Then, when Dr. Myerhoff examined the muscles, he discovered that they were bathed in lactic acid. A theory was born. Lack of oxygen to muscles leads to lactic acid, leads to fatigue.

Athletes were told that they should spend most of their effort exercising aerobically, using glucose as a fuel. If they tried to spend too much time exercising harder, in the anaerobic zone, they were told, they would pay a price, that lactic acid would accumulate in the muscles, forcing them to stop.

Few scientists questioned this view, Dr. Brooks said. But, he said, he became interested in it in the 1960's, when he was running track at Queens College and his coach told him that his performance was limited by a buildup of lactic acid.

When he graduated and began working on a Ph.D. in exercise physiology, he decided to study the lactic acid hypothesis for his dissertation. "I gave rats radioactive lactic acid, and I found that they burned it faster than anything else I could give them," Dr. Brooks said.

It looked as if lactic acid was there for a reason. It was a source of energy. Dr. Brooks said he published the finding in the late 70's. Other researchers challenged him at meetings and in print.

"I had huge fights, I had terrible trouble getting my grants funded, I had my papers rejected," Dr. Brooks recalled. But he soldiered on, conducting more elaborate studies with rats and, years later, moving on to humans. Every time, with every study, his results were consistent with his radical idea.

Eventually, other researchers confirmed the work. And gradually, the thinking among exercise physiologists began to change.

"The evidence has continued to mount," said L. Bruce Gladden, a professor of health and human performance at Auburn University. "It became clear that it is not so simple as to say, Lactic acid is a bad thing and it causes fatigue."

As for the idea that lactic acid causes muscle soreness, Dr. Gladden said, that never made sense.

"Lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within an hour of exercise," he said. "You get sore one to three days later. The time frame is not consistent, and the mechanisms have not been found."

The understanding now is that muscle cells convert glucose or glycogen to lactic acid. The lactic acid is taken up and used as a fuel by mitochondria, the energy factories in muscle cells.

Mitochondria even have a special transporter protein to move the substance into them, Dr. Brooks found. Intense training makes a difference, he said, because it can make double the mitochondrial mass.

It is clear that the old lactic acid theory cannot explain what is happening to muscles, Dr. Brooks and others said.

Yet, Dr. Brooks said, even though coaches often believed in the myth of the lactic acid threshold, they ended up training athletes in the best way possible to increase their mitochondria. "Coaches have understood things the scientists didn't," he said.

Through trial and error, coaches learned that athletic performance improved when athletes worked on endurance, running longer and longer distances, for example.

That, it turns out, increased the mass of their muscle mitochondria, letting them burn more lactic acid and allowing the muscles to work harder and longer. Just before a race, coaches often tell athletes to train very hard in brief spurts.

That extra stress increases the mitochondria mass even more, Dr. Brooks said, and is the reason for improved performance.

And the scientists?

They took much longer to figure it out. "They said, 'You're anaerobic, you need more oxygen,' " Dr. Brooks said. "The scientists were stuck in 1920."

FOCUS
13-12-2007, 00:04
lijkt er dus toch op het kan.
en ik roep altijd dat je tijdens een training maar een keer in de week/2weken zwaar in de verzuring mag gaan:wacko:, omdat dan de hersteltijd zo lang is..
sorry mensen, mijn fout:blush:.

Tony
13-12-2007, 10:40
had basje rutten toch gelijk inderdaad... ach, we zijn nooit te jong om te leren he ;)

dimitri
13-12-2007, 16:06
By GINA KOLATA
New York Times
May 16, 2006

Gina Kolata?

Dat moet toch een pseudoniem zijn.

FOCUS
14-12-2007, 10:01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Kolata


toch niet;)

FOCUS
22-12-2007, 15:42
krijg net de 'sportgericht' binnen, staat een artikel over dit onderwerp.
Als ik het artikel heb gelezen zal ik hierover posten.
(ff snel doorgespit, conclusie van artikel was wel duidelijk; melkzuur is niet de oorzaak van het optreden van vermoeidheid, maar idd te gebruiken als brandstof)

Chico
23-12-2007, 13:22
de sportgericht? is dat artikel ook online te vinden?

Bud S
23-12-2007, 22:52
nuttige info mannen !

dus om het kort samen te vatten zijn er in jip en janneke taal 3 theorieen:

1) van melkzuur wordt je moe
2) door het verlies van "potassium (???)" bij anaerobe arbeid wordt je moe en melkzuur gaat dit verlies zoveel mogelijk tegen en helpt een spier zo mee om effectief te kunnen blijven contraheren.
3) melkzuur is daadwerkelijk een brandstof voor de spieren

dan is er ook nog een theorie uit de krachtsport, dat melkzuur een belangrijke trigger is voor hypertrofie (ofwel het opbouwen van spiermassa)
japanners gingen bijv. squatten met strak omwikkelde benen om dit effect te versterken. of het hielp weet ik niet...

iig zetten dit soort theorieen en onderzoeken de meer gangbare aannames weer es helemaal op de kop.

cool

Bud S
23-12-2007, 23:09
lol lijkt me sterk.
je hebt flink wat tijd nodig voor die shit
weer uit je spieren is en je er vol tegenaan kan.

volgens bovengenoemd onderzoek, 1 uur ...daar kun je zeker wat mee doen in de warming up.

op zich is het misschien zo gek nog niet, als je al weet dat je binnen hele korte tijd gaat verzuren in een wedstrijd, dat je dan het energie leverende systeem voor aanvang alvast gaat optimaliseren.

een beetje de atkins gedachte (wil je vet verbranden, dan moet je vet eten )

interessant dilemma: kies je voor voorvermoeide spieren, maar met als voordeel een al op vollende toeren draaiend anaerobe verbranding of kies je voor "fitte" spieren bij aanvang en het nadeel dat je van aeroob nog over moet schakelen naar anaeroob verbranden.

wat levert het meeste rendement ?

en bij welk type gevecht staand of grondwerk ?

FOCUS
23-12-2007, 23:48
ff voordat ik mn bedje induik;
sportgericht is niet online, maar is wel een goed vakblad voor leraren lich.opvoeding, trainers, coaches, fysioten etc etc.
het artikel zet een aantal zaken op een rijtje. Zo lijkt de optredende vermoeidheid, en daarmee de verminderde prestatie(drang) zijn oorsprong te vinden in het centrale zenuwstelsel. Dat zijn de hersenen en het ruggemerg. Dus niet in de spier zelf.
Proeven in een laboratorium waarbij spiervezels werden gestimuleerd in een zuur milieu laten zien dat de spiervezels makkelijker samentrekken.
De verminderde prestatie die gepaard gaat met het vollopen van de spieren (wat we dus als 'verzuring' zagen), kan bijv op de volgende manier verklaard worden: Door intensieve contracties komt er kalium vrij (potassium in het engels) -en natrium. Het kalium zou vrije zenuwuiteinden prikkelen en een soort van pijnreactie kunnen geven (het verzurende gevoel wellicht?) Dit pijnsignaal zorgt in de hersenen voor een verminderde prestatiedrang, je wilt eigenlijk stoppen! Het is een soort van veiligheidsklep van het lichaam om het voor overbelasting te behoeden.
Dus nog voor de spieren maximaal uitgeput raken, remmen de hersenen je lichaam af!!!
Echte bikkels kunnen langer de pijn verdragen en dus harder trainen.
De geest is dan de baas van het lichaam en niet andersom...
Stond nog een hoop in, en ik maak nu in de gauwigheid vast wel een paar fouten....
Toch wel errug interessant, verzuring is dus geen verzuring.
Je hersenen geven aan dat je wilt kappen, terwijl je lichaam nog wel ff doorkan.

ff nog Willem 777:
Skeletal muscle hypertrophy after chronic restriction of venous blood flow in rats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16015131 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16015131)

Skeletal muscle protein synthesis after active or passive ascent to high altitude:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16775549 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16775549)

FOCUS
23-12-2007, 23:59
MAAR!

Hoe nuttig is hypertrofie eigenlijk:whistling:....


belangrijkste factor voor prestatieverbetering is de neurale aansturing.
of in normale taal: motoriek!
(voel je vrij om hier een aparte discussie over te starten:)).

Bud S
24-12-2007, 08:12
MAAR!

Hoe nuttig is hypertrofie eigenlijk:whistling:....




hypertrofie is m.n. erg nuttig voor mma-gasten die met ontbloot bovenlijf over straat lopen, hopende dat iemand ze tough guys noemt
waarna ze de voorverzuurde spiertjes en hersentjes ff lekker kunnen ontladen. want zo tough zijn ze wel, die slaan dwars door de verzuring heen.;)

Chico
24-12-2007, 09:37
lol willem..

@ focus... is dat sportgericht te koop bij de bruna/ako ofzo?

Briant
24-12-2007, 13:54
2) door het verlies van "potassium (???)" bij anaerobe arbeid wordt je moe en melkzuur gaat dit verlies zoveel mogelijk tegen en helpt een spier zo mee om effectief te kunnen blijven contraheren.


Potassium = Kalium... Heeft te maken met de "H+ pomp", zorgt dus kort door de bocht voor de zuurtegraad van je cellen.